Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Jesus Christ in Finding Christ on Every Page. I'm Tammy Usalak hall, and I'm here with my friend, Dr. Donald W. Perry. And we are so excited because today is a special episode, as you can see, with some very special guests. But before I introduce you to them, I want to show you. I have six pictures, you guys. And these six pictures are pictures of things in the Old Testament. And they all have one thing in common. Are you ready? Okay, here we go. I'm going to show you these pictures. Here's our first picture.
Okay.
Second picture.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: These are pretty hard, you know?
[00:00:33] Speaker A: I know, but I might trick you.
It's a horn.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Oh, look at that.
Shofar.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Shofar. Very good.
[00:00:43] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: There's a loaf of bread.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Love homemade bread. Love it.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: There's a glass of water.
And then lastly, a shield.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: This was supposed to trick you a little bit with this one.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Magen David.
[00:00:59] Speaker D: Magen David.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Nice job.
So all six of these pictures are found in the Old Testament, and they just have one thing in common. And in today's special episode, we're going to talk about that one thing and why it's so important to find that one thing in the Old Testament. Are you ready to do this?
[00:01:15] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Do you guys know what the one thing is?
[00:01:18] Speaker D: I think so.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Maybe I was tricky.
[00:01:20] Speaker D: I don't know who's gonna say.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Who dares? I know exactly. What is it?
[00:01:24] Speaker D: Jesus Christ.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Fantastic. Okay, so this is gonna be a fun discussion. I'm gonna let dawn explain who you guys are. Cause this is really cool. And we've been looking so forward to you being on this episode.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: This is a great privilege and opportunity. Welcome, everyone.
[00:01:38] Speaker D: Thank you for coming. Thank you.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Before we begin, I want to recognize and express gratitude to Kirk Magoby and his team, Xander, Spencer and Matt, for letting us use the facility and for their work and their editing and all the work that they have ahead of them.
Now, in my career as a professor of the Hebrew Bible, which is the Old Testament, I have come across so many people who have made statements like, I don't see Jesus Christ anywhere in the Old Testament. I don't see Jesus. He's throughout the Book of Mormon. He's throughout the New Testament. Where is he?
Old Testament. So one of my life's goals, one of my greatest objectives, is to show that Jesus Christ is found throughout the Old Testament. So I've invited three students and a colleague, a co worker, to come and join us, Tammy and I, and we'll express, we'll share. How do we find Jesus Christ? In the Old Testament. But before we begin. So three research assistants.
So if you'll introduce yourselves, and then Sister Miller also introduce yourselves. Let's start with you, please.
[00:02:59] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:03:00] Speaker F: I'm Whitney and I'm from North Dakota.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Heard of it?
[00:03:04] Speaker A: I'm sure you have.
[00:03:07] Speaker E: I'm Heide. I'm from Colorado.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Good to have you here. Thank you.
[00:03:11] Speaker D: And I'm Eric Palmer from Idaho.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Thank you. And I'm. I'm from Idaho also. We've talked about this a few times.
[00:03:17] Speaker D: Many times.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: We both like potatoes. We love potatoes of any kind.
And sometimes I bring treats up.
I buy some treats for my research assistant and we fill a drawer.
Oh, I love it in my desk. And he said, I want to have lay's potato chips.
I don't know if I.
[00:03:37] Speaker F: Have you done it yet?
[00:03:38] Speaker D: Oh, he's brought us. Anyways, he's done it and he just restocked us.
[00:03:41] Speaker B: So I don't know if I'm supposed to say, ladies, is that promoting some.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Well, you just said they're delicious.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: I take that back.
[00:03:47] Speaker E: Potato chips.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: I take that back. Just potato chips of any.
[00:03:50] Speaker C: Sister Miller, I'm Rebecca Miller and I'm from Santa Quinn, Utah.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Thank you. So it's so good to have you all here for this special presentation. So what I'd like to do, I'll begin, and then I'd like to each of you to share the following.
Where do you find Jesus Christ in the Hebrew scriptures or the Old Testament? And I'll just give you one, one idea. I hope I'm not taking your idea away.
The name Jehovah. Jehovah.
We've had several prophets of God who have said Jehovah is none other than Jesus Christ. The name Jehovah appears 6,800 times in Hebrew scripture.
It's found as Lord in the King James Version with all caps, Lord, L O R D.
And each presentation of Jesus or of Jehovah is in a context that tells us much about Jesus Christ.
So I want everyone. I want to invite everyone who's listening to this to look for Lord in capsule.
And. No, that's Jesus Christ's premortal name.
It's a powerful name. It's an ineffable name.
Some religious.
Some people don't even pronounce the name in Hebrew because it's too sacred to pronounce. So my Jewish friends say Adonai.
When they come across it in Hebrew, they say Adonai.
So let's. I'd like to hear from each of you and have a discussion.
[00:05:30] Speaker C: Yeah, Well, I was kind of thinking along the same lines as you about that, because with the Hebrew, you see that sacred name Jehovah everywhere, right? You. You can't turn a page without seeing it multiple times.
But in the English version, you. You kind of miss that. You just see Lord, which is wonderful, but you miss that space specialness. I also think it's really interesting to me that so many of the Hebrew names are theophoric, right? Like, and that's a big word that means.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: What does that mean?
[00:06:02] Speaker C: Well, it means that the name has God or Jehovah in it, Right. It has meanings. You know, you look at, like Daniel, God is my judge, right? You look at Elijah, Eliyahu, which is one of my favorites.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Me too. Me too.
[00:06:19] Speaker C: And that has both the name Elohim and Jehovah.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: It's a double theophoric.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: Yes.
And that means that my God is Jehovah.
So even in the names, you see Jesus in it.
And I really, I love that. And that's everywhere.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: I love it. So what you're saying is the L, E, L in Daniel and Elijah is the name God.
So these are God names. I love it.
[00:06:56] Speaker D: I think these are beautiful because God is everywhere in Scripture. And you see that with these theophoric names. You see that in all places. And I think what you can appreciate, you take and you look at the Hebrew, for example, and it helps you break down the grammar of what is being written. And you just slow down for a sec and you have to think about who's the subject? Who's our object of this sentence? Who's it talking about? I think when you slow down and when you recognize that Lord in all caps is referring to Jehovah, the premortal Jesus Christ, and when you understand that and slow down, then you see that so often Jesus Christ is the subject of the verse. He's the object of the verse. And this is something I'm sure you maybe shared before, Dr. Perry, but you've often taught us and to teach others that over 6,000 times that name appears almost 7,000 times in the Hebrew Bible, this divine name of Jehovah appears, and he's everywhere, and he's the. The center of the Old Testament. And so not to be facetious in any way, but hearing a question like that, it immediately brings to my mind, how could you not, you know, how could you not see Jesus Christ in all these things?
[00:08:15] Speaker F: I love that. And I think personally for me, when I think about my journey with the Old Testament, it's had its up and downs at least, and in particular for me, I struggled at first with understanding the law of Moses and all of the. Just reading through the laws and sometimes being like, you know, how does this point to. To. To Jehovah? How does this point to Jesus Christ? And the more that I've studied, and especially through the, the aid of, Of Hebrew itself, the more that you come to understand the, the historical context that surrounds that time and that this law that's been extended, the law of Moses, points a hundred percent to Jehovah, to, To our Savior, Jesus Christ, that the law of Moses is all about cultural caring. You have in within it the law of redemption, where we as God's children, right, we have this opportunity as his covenant people to emulate the Savior and serve others and help them in their states of destitution, you know, care for those who can't care for themselves.
And the more that I read through the law of Moses with this perspective, the more that I came to see how every single law points to Jesus Christ, points to how we can become like him and how we can rely on him and in order to overcome all things. And I just, I loved that.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: There are a lot of laws.
[00:09:37] Speaker F: There are a lot.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: How many? Best guess.
[00:09:39] Speaker F: Oh.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: 600.
[00:09:43] Speaker F: Yeah, there's in the hundreds, for sure.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Yes. So you're saying some of these obscure laws point to Jesus Christ also?
[00:09:52] Speaker F: I mean, from what I've experienced and the ones that I've translated through and the ones that I've gotten to see more and more of, definitely I've seen them point to Jesus Christ. And I just, I love it.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Is there one law in particular? Give us an example.
[00:10:05] Speaker F: Oh, I absolutely love the law of gleaning. I love the law of gleaning that you see particularly evident in Ruth, in which the Lord, like Jehovah, commands that you'll leave a section of your field. Right. For people to come up and to pick up for those who. For the poor, for the needy, for the stranger. Right. The foreigners in the land. Anyone who needs provisions for themselves can just go and gather and they're meant to just let it be for them. And I love that. Love that.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: I do too. That's the one I thought of.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:10:34] Speaker A: You know, that's such a great.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: That's not only in the law, but we see it, as you just said, in the book of Ruth.
[00:10:41] Speaker F: Yes.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: And haven't you been reading Ruth with the students, you and Eric?
[00:10:46] Speaker D: Yes, we have been. It's on our mind.
We love Ruth.
[00:10:49] Speaker B: So. So I, I took a. I Took a trip to some faraway cities, and they were so nice to take one of my classes and Sister Miller, too. So.
[00:11:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:03] Speaker E: Not only is Jesus Christ found in his law, but he's also found in his covenant. And I think that's what I love most about the Old Testament is that it is messy. You have real people making real mistakes, but who, through their covenants with God, are bound to him.
And with Jesus Christ, they find strength and they find deliverance from their problems. And how applicable is that for us today?
We need this book because of the application of the atonement of Jesus Christ that is found within it.
[00:11:35] Speaker B: Okay, I'm going to ask another round of questions. Do you have a favorite prophecy? And I'll let you go first. So I don't take away a favorite prophecy in the Old Testament of Jesus Christ.
Tammy, too.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: All right, I'll go first.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Okay. Because it's one of my favorite things to do, is in the book of Leviticus, chapter 16.
And I love to go through there and highlight every time I see the word atonement.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: And it is the most in any book of the Old Testament. And so to go and highlight that word, it just is, like you said, it's pointing everyone to their redeemer. It's pointing everyone to a practice where they're like, why are we doing this? And it's pointing them to Jesus Christ and the practice of Kaphar, which is the Hebrew word which we love, that that word means to cover. And it just. The implications of this day of atonement, or the holiday that they're celebrating is so profound in that book of Leviticus. So that's my favorite prophecy.
[00:12:34] Speaker B: And the word atonement appears in the Hebrew Scriptures 100 times or 101.
It depends if we're counting the word Kaphar, where it says Noah smeared some of the.
Not oil, but asphalt or something to help waterproof it, to pitch it.
That's it. That's it.
[00:12:59] Speaker A: Well, and when you see in your calendar, which everyone's got the Google Calendar, a lot of times Jewish holidays pop up, and you're like, I do not.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: Know what this is.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: So when Yom Kippur comes up, I'm like, well, that's a fun name. Until I started studying Hebrew. And then I'm like, oh, Yom means day. And Kapur is how you say, Kapar, which means atonement. Day of atonement. What?
So that is just. It's everywhere in the scriptures. But for sure, Leviticus, when it talks about Yom Kippur.
The practice of that word is. I love it.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: Any of you have a favorite prophecy you'd like to share with us? I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot, but.
[00:13:33] Speaker A: He did.
[00:13:33] Speaker D: Yeah, he did.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: I did.
[00:13:36] Speaker D: Anyway.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Well, actually, I'm trying to put you on the spot.
[00:13:39] Speaker D: That's so fair. One that came to my mind, and there are so many, and there's a lot that people may be more familiar with, but I love looking at minor prophets and I love looking the books of Scripture that are these prophetic books and can easily be glossed over because they might not be a part of a bigger narrative that we as members may just read. But the one that came to my mind was Hosea. And I think I spent a lot of time recently thinking about that book of Scripture and the prophecy of how Hosea represents Jesus Christ. And also the name itself means he will save, referring in the same room of Yeshua salvation, directly relating and implicating the mind that this is to reference Jehovah, Jesus Christ. And what Hosea does is then he enters into this. This marriage. And there's beautiful imagery about how and why he's commanded to. To marry Gomer, who, as it says, is. Is a wife of harlotry, you could say, but how that relates to us, that we're so often unloyal and unfaithful. But that is okay because he has provided atonement, as Leviticus 16 teaches. And he provides a way for us to come back to him, that we can be his people, that he has mercy on us. And that one has meant a lot.
[00:15:02] Speaker C: For me, personally, I love that one too. One of my favorites is the story of Jonah and right when he is in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights.
And how it's spoken of later in the New Testament.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: Matthew 12.
[00:15:21] Speaker C: Yeah, that. I mean, Jesus says, this is what's going to happen to me. You know, just like the. The sign of Jonah. Right.
It really is that. That was prophesied so long ago that Jesus Christ, after he died, it would be three days, but then he would raise, be raised again. He would be resurrected.
So powerful.
[00:15:46] Speaker E: I love all of the prophecies that foretell of Christ's coming. I mean, it talks about a woman shall conceive and bear a son and call his name Emmanuel. And of course, there's some dualism happening there, but it of course is talking about Jesus Christ or even the prophecies later on where it says he'll ride in on a donkey. I Mean, this is years and years before the coming of Jesus Christ.
And yet Christ in his life also took that scripture and felt how important it was to fulfill that prophecy that was given in the Old Testament.
[00:16:18] Speaker F: I love that. I think on a different note, along with all the comments that have been said, I love, love the wisdom literature in the Old Testament. Particularly I love the book of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Job. I think those are incredible books. And one thing that I really appreciate about them is how they, they work together in order to, to point to Jesus Christ.
With the book of Proverbs, you learn that doing good, you get good. And that's something that's important. That's an important principle to live by life, right? Our Savior constantly encourages us to, to do good by others, but that can't account for every situation that we're in, right? And you see with Job that sometimes you do good, sometimes you are an excellent doing what you need to do.
And yet your circumstances will yield a different outcome. And that can be really difficult. And so like with Job, the Lord teaches, the Savior teaches that no matter what, as long as you turn to Me and you focus your attention on me, you will come out of this with truth, with knowledge, and with understanding. That is so important for you. And then what's best is that you have the book of Ecclesiastes that takes all of those together and says, now what if we have the circumstance where all is vain, where everything is temporal? And how would we live life like that? Do we eat, drink and be merry? And Ecclesiastes is like, nope. And through the power of the Lord and His Word, he teaches that as long as we once again focus on Jesus Christ, on the Savior, we know what it means to truly live. That is when we gain everything and that we have joy in life. That is what it. That's what makes a wise person in a way. And I just, I love what that teaches altogether.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: These are great when it comes. Great, great comments from all of each of you. I'm going to ask one more question. And they're not aware that I'm asking this question.
I'm aware that there are dozens or scores of divine names and titles of the Lord in the Old Testament.
So what I'd like each of you to do is to choose one and tell how it's significant to you. So, divine name or title? And again, I'm putting you on the spot. I know the cameras are rolling.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: No pressure.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: If you like, I can start, or one of you want to start. I Don't want to take one away from you.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: I will start again, Tammy, because it's one of my pictures.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: All right.
[00:18:46] Speaker A: Okay. So it's this one.
And I love, in Second Samuel, as well as in the book of Psalm, that the Savior's called the Horn of My Salvation.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: And so I just think this is really neat, especially for anyone that gets the chance to go through a temple before it's dedicated. You might see a horn in a temple and go, what in the world? And then you realize, oh, oh, it's a symbol of Jesus Christ. So that title, Horn of My Salvation is. That's why I put that picture in there.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Just so, just a little side note. Okay.
Years ago, I wrote a paper on the Dead sea Scrolls and 2 Samuel 22. And that's where that's found.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: That is.
[00:19:26] Speaker B: And it's scholarly. I use a lot of Hebrew and talk about different things, but that's a powerful symbol.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: Well, I really like the name Mashiach.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Okay. All right.
[00:19:40] Speaker C: Which is Messiah.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:42] Speaker C: But it means anointed, and you get anointed before you do something.
It is the preparatory thing of becoming. Like, before you become a king, they anoint you, and then you become kings. Right.
And so I really love that that's a name of Jesus, because it reminds me that he was anointed from the very beginning to do what he has done.
And he was prepared from the very beginning.
Anointed, set apart. This is what he was going to do. And then we see his mission unfolded.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: Very good.
[00:20:21] Speaker F: I think for myself, one thing that I came across recently that I just love, I was reading in Ezekiel 16, and there you have this imagery, right, that Jehovah, that our. Our Savior is married to Israel. Right. You have that. That symbolism.
Israel is. Is his.
His covenant people. And you see that as well in the New Testament, right, where he's the groom. And you have that. That marriage imagery there.
And I love. I love that, because when you think about the marriage covenant and just bonding yourself to another person, as our Savior has done for us, it is this. It comes from infinite love. You want to spend the rest of your life with them, and you want to love them and you want to selflessly give for them to have the best kind of life that they can have. And to know that the Savior sees that covenant in that way, to know more about his perspective of how he views our covenants with him and our discipleship with him in such a selfless and such a complete love, truly just means the world to me. So.
[00:21:30] Speaker E: Isaiah talks about Jesus Christ as a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And it makes it all the more powerful that he is a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief and then can therefore be our redeemer simultaneously. It is because of his willingness to go through hard things, to go through the atonement, his death and his resurrection that we overcome and that he can have empathy with us and really know what it is that we're dealing with.
So I think that's one of my favorites is a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
[00:22:10] Speaker D: I love, I love all of these. And the one that came to my mind, and I think it's because we've been going through Ruth with our students is Redeemer a Goel.
And for me, the reason that's so significant is I remember as a new student of biblical Hebrew and learning these words and learning this term go well. I mean, this idea of to redeem as Gaal and how it has such a cultural and significant history that it's not just a different word to say Savior. I think back to the temple recommend question was, do you have faith in the testament of Jesus Christ as your Savior and Redeemer? And they're different. Otherwise our inspired prophetic leaders wouldn't feel inspired to separate those and to understand a redeemer as someone, a kinsman. That's what's being displayed there in Ruth. It's a kinsman normally attributed to the older member of a family who has to cover for the rest of his family if they fall into debt, if they get in trouble.
There's these beautiful laws of marriage to take care, to be a redeemer, that no matter what, because we don't have the ability.
That's what normally happens. These people, they're in debt, they're struggling, they don't have the ability. And that's when a Goel, a redeemer, steps in and says, I will cover for you because it's my responsibility.
As an older family member. I think of Jesus Christ as our oldest brother as a family member. Not just some distant being who is trying to make us better, but someone who is close, a kinsman that loves us and is always ready to redeem us.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: Isaiah the prophet explicitly multiple times calls Jehovah our Redeemer.
These have been very powerful statements. Thank you so much. Before we turn the time back to Tammy.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: Wait, what's your word?
[00:24:11] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
This is a hard one.
My go to words are Isaiah 9, 6, where there are six or four compound words. Prince of peace, everlasting God. But I'm going to. So that's an easy one. If you can't think of one, just go to Isaiah 96. But I'm going to choose Psalm 23. The Lord Jehovah. Jesus Christ is my shepherd.
It's very personal. He's my shepherd. He's your shepherd too.
He's so powerful.
He can be my shepherd and your shepherd. And he cares for me.
That's my word.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: I'm glad we asked you.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Now I'm going to do one more thing. And then before we go back to Tammy, a year ago, Sister Miller and I were teaching Hebrew 131.
And I often have the students come up just out of the blue. I say, michelle, will you come up and bear your testimony?
Or someone else. Or someone else.
And I asked Sister Miller to bear her testimony and she doesn't know. I'm going to do this right now. Oh.
And it makes it more natural. But will you just bear a brief testimony of Jesus Christ?
[00:25:28] Speaker C: I would love to. Thanks for asking.
Jesus Christ is so real to me.
I know that he was pre destined to become our Savior and redeemer in the premortal world that he was born with from Mary, a virgin that he walked the roads of Palestine.
He healed the sick, he raised the dead as a living Christ document says.
Then he atoned for us in the garden of Gethsemane and felt my pains and sicknesses and atoned for my sins and for everyone else's sins. And then he hung on the cross and died.
He was then buried.
And for three days people mourned and it was dark.
And then that third day came and Jesus Christ was resurrected, defeating death and hell for every single one of us.
He is my God. He is my King. He is my Redeemer. He is my Savior.
And only through him are we able to even do what we're doing and to become and progress.
I love my Savior. He. He lives. And I know he's coming again.
And I'm very excited for that day.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: I am too.
[00:26:58] Speaker C: So I. I say that in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: Amen. Amen.
[00:27:03] Speaker A: Thank you, Rebecca. Wow. Thank you to all of you for your answers today. This was a really great discussion and kudos to you for picking such great assistants.
[00:27:11] Speaker B: And they're amazing.
[00:27:13] Speaker A: Yeah, they really are. This has been a fun discussion. Thank you for joining us today on Jesus Christ in scriptures. And we are so excited for to find Jesus Christ on every page. That's our goal as we study the Old Testament. So look for those names the theophoric names, the titles of the Savior. Look for pictures in the Old Testament that connect you to Jesus Christ. That is the whole goal of studying the Old Testament. And we just wish you the best week and have so much fun studying the Scriptures. So shalom and goodbye.
Sam.
